"What is a Sacrament? w/ Marriage Follow-Up"

Bishop Barron Video - https://youtu.be/JDBhaeus3Sg?si=YFXSJYCUCBCSz9lK

Music Copyright: https://artlist.io/

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:20

Hello, hello everybody, and welcome back to another episode in the This is Unveiling Christianity, and I'm Father David, and I'm Mark Turnus. Mark, how's it going today? It's going really well today. Oh my gosh. Yeah, for sure. It's been uh yeah, been a lot of good things going on. It's uh is it it's Manic May, you know. It is a lot of celebrations though, and that's good.

SPEAKER_00 0:46

It starts with uh Mary bringing bringing Mary to the altar.

SPEAKER_02 0:50

It's true, yes. We had our May crownings, we had uh Mother's Day, we had um all kinds of things.

SPEAKER_00 0:56

Yeah, we had uh I I had some birthdays, we had confirmation, we had uh first communion, um just a lot of celebrations.

SPEAKER_02 1:04

So many things to talk about here, right? So how is uh how was how was your mother's day? Was it good?

SPEAKER_00 1:08

It was good. We we celebrated it with my wife, of course, and all the other mothers in our family, and my wife's mother, and she also celebrated on that day her 94th birthday. Wow, that's awesome! Yeah, that was uh that's that's quite a milestone. I can't even comprehend that. Uh, but she is doing well, and uh we lit four candles, not 94 candles because we didn't give any trick candles. No, no, my goodness, no. Now, my my sister-in-law actually did 90 candles for her her mother, but in any event, another great birthday is coming up in a couple of days. Yeah, yes, on on Friday is the birthday of my twin sister, which means it's my birthday as well. Wow. So next Friday. We'll have to this Friday. Oh, this Friday. Well, happy birthday podcast. Yeah, yeah. This is a happy birthday podcast. I'm sorry. I don't have a cake or that's all right. Well, I sprung this on you. Wow. Yeah. My my twin and I were born in 1957. So I'm not gonna say how old she is, but I guess you can do the math.

SPEAKER_02 2:17

There you go. Um, do you like cake or ice cream more? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:20

If you had to choose if I had to choose, definitely ice cream. Definitely. I I love cake and I love cake with ice cream. I love cake. Chocolate or vanilla? Chocolate. Ice cream. We we had this when we were talking about objective and subjective truth. Favorite ice cream flavor. Boy, I have a deep memory sometimes. There you go. A favorite ice cream uh flavor is either a coffee or mint chocolate chip.

SPEAKER_02 2:44

There you go. I uh uh cake is good. I'm more of a pie guy. Oh, well now you didn't ask me that. I'm I don't know I'm I'm just I'm a pie guy.

SPEAKER_00 2:52

Okay, okay.

SPEAKER_02 2:53

Apple warm apple pie and and vanilla ice cream, pretty much is I like I like peach, but I like that little little uh sour cream topping.

SPEAKER_00 3:00

Oh yeah. You have a rhubarb? Yes, my mother made it very, very well. What is rhubarb? It's it's this long, it it kind of looks a little bit like celery, but it has like a red? Yeah, it's reddish. It in and it has like a little bit of a flowery kind of thing on top, but but you there's it's a stalk kind of thing. And my mom made incredible rhubarb pie, tons of sugar. I mean yeah, a lot a lot of sugar and butter to get it to to taste as as yummy as hers was. Now my mother was a pie maker, and you either are or are not a pie maker. She had the secret back then, and this is back in the 60s and 70s, Crisco. That's what made the pie shell so crispy.

SPEAKER_02 3:43

So here's a question. Of all your five senses, which one do you appreciate the most?

SPEAKER_00 3:49

Uh that's a really hard one. I I would say taste is way up there. Because I I do I do love to eat, I do love taste. I I did go on a heart healthy diet, so I cut salt and the the everything tastes more naturally food, not not covered down with salt.

SPEAKER_02 4:06

I um I mean I've I've thought about that over the years in different ways. I mean, obviously they're all amazing and beautiful, and we wouldn't want to we wouldn't wouldn't want to go without any of them, right? Uh I just I don't know, I've just noticed that they're obviously so smell and taste are connected. They're all connected to each other in some way, right? Yeah. But uh yeah, just my sense just the sense of smell, like being able to walk through, you know, the woods and smelling the like yeah, I mean just the different senses just bring such a depth to experience, right? Uh just to life and everything, to not be able to taste food uh and everything. But just to walk through the woods and smell the trees is if you want to I don't know, it's just a very uh it's just it's uh in a sense a real spiritual experience.

SPEAKER_00 4:47

You can walk through the woods the same hike four different times a year, and it smells completely different each time.

SPEAKER_02 4:54

Yeah, I was uh on Sunday uh before I went down to Akron to have dinner with the the family and everything. Uh we had some some some good food, you know. But uh I went on a bike ride in the afternoon. I was able to get out to the parkway and everything, and just just riding through the the parkway was beautiful. But there's a little section uh just south of Strongsville that has uh a river that flows. And it was just even just smelling the river, yep. It reminds me of when we're in Boy Scouts, we uh did a 50-mile canoe trip on uh the Allegheny River. That is impressive.

SPEAKER_00 5:27

Now you had you had a little bit of a current with you.

SPEAKER_02 5:29

Not yes, yeah, uh yes, not against the current. No, no, no. But I mean not all at once.

SPEAKER_00 5:33

A current with you for 50 miles is maybe doable, but that's a long way.

SPEAKER_02 5:38

Yeah, so it was over a couple days. Yeah, yeah. And yes, we were going with the current. So but it just there is a certain peace when you're just sitting on the in the middle of this river, because it's just very quiet. You know, there's not a lot of yeah, a lot of the all the noise from the riverbanks are kind of far away. Right. And it's just very peaceful. And then you get some rapids every once in a while, some some quicker places, but just smelling the river was just it kind of brought me back to that time and there was just a deep, just kind of deep peace, you know, that came over me.

SPEAKER_00 6:06

We we we share that love. We share that love for kayaking or canoeing, and we also I think I I also appreciate that that peace.

SPEAKER_02 6:14

Yeah, that's why we have, I mean, why do we always have food and celebrations together, right? Yeah, we want to experience like experiencing tasty and joyful things kind of helps us to celebrate and enter into what we're what we're doing, right?

SPEAKER_00 6:29

I I never thought of it that way, but that's very true. I'd think I just thought of it right now. I like well then maybe that's why I never heard of it, but it's very, very true. It's very profound. You should write that down. Oh well, well uh well it's it's already it's already in in history now.

SPEAKER_02 6:41

But yeah, but I think we want to we have these joy like food kind of brings us uh a sense of of happiness, of joy, right? Uh a sense of we're we're tasting something good. I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 6:50

Well, how easily you can move to table and Jesus at table and the you know, I mean it's all it all kind of it does make a lot of sense. Yeah. Now anyway, something really makes a lot of deep sense that table fellowship is is a very celebratory thing.

SPEAKER_02 7:05

Something to ponder.

SPEAKER_00 7:06

Yes, yeah, very cool, very cool.

SPEAKER_02 7:08

Yeah. All right. Well, actually, kind of with that, we didn't really plan our banter today, but it's going right in the direction of the topic here.

SPEAKER_00 7:14

We went right to celebration.

SPEAKER_02 7:15

So yeah, well, but even just like the the reality of of tasting and smelling the senses, right? So today, uh, because we're going to talk about the sacraments. Right. So uh today we're gonna talk about the sacraments and just kind of give a little definition of of the sacraments and different things, because we had uh kind of tying into these past couple episodes, we talked about theology of the body with Father Patrick, uh, talked specifically about you know what is the what is Catholic sacramental marriage, and you know, yeah, kind of giving a definition to that. You know, so last time we kind of defined, you know, the free, total, and faithful and fruitful aspects of of marriage. Uh, you know, that it marriage has is a relationship that has a nature in and of itself. Uh so kind of we looked at the anthropological or the human kind of dimension of of marriage. Uh, we talked a little bit about the spiritual side, um, but I wanted to spend just a little more time uh with that this time. So the marriage is a vocation, that ultimately it's a calling. Vocation's come vocation comes from the Latin word vocare. So it's a it's a calling, it's something you receive from God, that he's a plan and purpose for our lives, and marriage is one of you know the ways of life that he calls us to in order to become saints. Be that the different paths being uh marriage, priesthood, religious life, uh consecrated or dedicated single life. Uh and so being a saint is the goal, right? Um but uh marriage is as a kind of a path in that. So I wanted to talk a little bit more specifically this time about what does it mean for marriage to be a sacrament? Um and we'll kind of define what a what a what a sacrament uh would be. So uh anyway, what do you what do what do you think about sacraments? Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_00 8:53

We're gonna get to that, the marriage part later.

SPEAKER_02 8:55

Yeah, we'll talk about yeah, we'll talk about sacrament sacraments and sacramentalities.

SPEAKER_00 8:59

What do I think about sacraments? Um what do what do you think? What do you know? I I I can I can I can name that tune in three words, okay? Jesus made visible. Oh, there you go. That you like that? I thought about that a little bit. I didn't just make that up like like your uh comment earlier. But but Jesus made visible, Jesus made earthy, Jesus made human that we can sense. Right talking about the senses.

SPEAKER_02 9:26

Sure, yeah, okay, yeah. So Christianity, uh, we would we could say uh is an incarnational faith. Yes, it's an incarnational religion. What do we mean by that? So we talked about you know in theology of the body that all of this is connected to the incarnation. What is the incarnation? Christmas, God taking on human flesh. Jesus used a body to communicate with the world. Right, right, right. He was fully divine, fully fully human, right? Uh one divine person, and he was in uh in a human body, right? He just like us, you know, fully fully human. So and if that happened, uh that means something, right? It's not just like, oh, that's a fun fact about you know world history or Christianity. If that actually happened, that means something has changed. Uh that means that that that there has consequences for the for the world, for the universe, that God actually entered into time and space uh in the human story, right? Yeah, so that's we talk about sacramentality, that ultimately the invisible is made visible, is able to be seen and known and smelled and taste and touch, kind of, kind of all that. Because God created us with our five senses, right? We know things are real by how we engage with the world, right? Right. And so, yeah, sacramentality is the sense of you know, God can be encountered in reality.

SPEAKER_00 10:50

And it's not like faith and spirituality and God are a part of two separate things where God is some magical, aloof, far-off thing that maybe if we're lucky we'll we'll get to. It's He's right here in this wor world, present to us every day.

SPEAKER_02 11:05

Right. And we were talking before the podcast a little bit about, you know, just kind of like the the time we live in. It was a time of secularism, uh time of it's considered kind of a post-Christian time, in a sense where you know the world has kind of more or less heard about Christianity, has kind of heard this Christian story, but has moved away from it.

SPEAKER_00 11:22

I think I think they've they've lost an understanding, I think. Secularism causes a loss of an understanding of who God is and how God relates to us.

SPEAKER_02 11:32

Yeah, yeah, sure. There's uh there's more to be discovered. Uh there there needs to be a rediscovery of Christianity, a rediscovery of Catholicism, you know, and all that. So and one of the opportunities and the ways to dis rediscover it is just through this whole reality of of sa of the sacraments, of the sacramentality of the faith, the uh exp and uh maybe in a sense the experiential kind of aspect of uh faith in in Jesus. And that's what really separates out Christianity from every other religion. Right. You know, uh it's you know spirituality and freedom and happiness you know isn't about getting away from the world, it's not about getting away from the body in everyday life, it's about encountering God uh in the world, in the body, in everyday life.

SPEAKER_00 12:17

Right. Jesus used a body to communicate to the world, and he continued that through the sacraments.

SPEAKER_02 12:23

Right. Yeah, so the traditional definition of the sacrament would be an outward sign instituted by Christ, which gives grace.

SPEAKER_00 12:30

Baltimore Catechism. I learned that there you go in the 60s. Indeed. What's what what the other one? What's the purpose of life? Um to know love and uh to know God, to love God, and to serve God. And to live with Him, and to live with Him in eternity. There you go. Yeah, see, I I I do remember that stuff several years back.

SPEAKER_02 12:49

Yeah, a couple. There is an importance to memorization, right? Um it can't just be all head though, we have to do heart, right? And so that's the opportunity.

SPEAKER_00 12:56

You taught me that long ago. That that was yeah, knowledge is is is one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit, but it's one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit.

SPEAKER_02 13:04

One thing to know about the sacrament. Yes, it's another thing to receive the sacrament and enter into it. It's one thing to know about Jesus, it's another thing to have a personal knowledge of Jesus, to have a uh a lived life with him, right? Right. So but that's kind of the definition. So an outward sign. So to say, uh, so we have seven sacraments in the church. Maybe you can just name those real quick. What are the what are the seven sacraments?

SPEAKER_00 13:29

I I know baptism, confirmation, and eucharist. I think those are initiation.

SPEAKER_02 13:33

Which uh so those sacraments of initiation.

SPEAKER_00 13:36

So you need those three to become initiated Catholic. Then there's penance and anointing of the sick, and those are healing.

SPEAKER_02 13:44

Okay, yeah, sacrament of uh reconciliation and then anointing of the sick.

SPEAKER_00 13:48

And then you have the vocational, the holy orders and uh marriage. Right. Priesthood and marriage. So that's kind of a good way to remember them.

SPEAKER_02 13:57

Indeed. Yeah, initiation, service, and healing. Yes, right. Totally. So those are the seven sacraments. So okay, so these things are outward signs, meaning that they have um something material to them, right? It's an outward sign, something we can experience and receive. All the sacraments have have ritual uh and I have um physical elements to them. Form and um how did how did they say that? They have uh so form and form and matter.

SPEAKER_00 14:27

Yeah, yes, thank you.

SPEAKER_02 14:29

So yeah, so we'll look at that. So so with um with that, so we have uh yeah, so every sacrament has has matter and form. So the matter of the sacrament uh of baptism is what?

SPEAKER_00 14:40

The matter is the water.

SPEAKER_02 14:42

Right. So you have to have water. You can't use water, you can't use Coca-Cola. That's right, that's correct. It has to be it has to be water, right? Just pure water. Yes. Uh then there's also from there you we use oil, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:55

Oil and all the chrism.

SPEAKER_02 14:58

Indeed, but for the validity of the sacrament, so that it actually happens, you know, uh, we have to have the butt the right matter and the right form, right? So uh yeah, so we need water with that for Eucharist. We need unleavened bread. You need bread, you need wine, and and pure and pure wine with no additives, right? Uh there uh for confirmation, which we celebrated just uh yesterday. Yes, yesterday evening.

SPEAKER_00 15:20

Beautiful, beautiful.

SPEAKER_02 15:20

Bishop Galesic. We have uh you know the laying on of the hands, laying on the hands, actual touching. Yeah, laying on of the hands and then and then oil, right? So uh and that the the laying on of the hands is a very ancient prayer, it's called an epiclesis uh from the Greek word uh to call down, right?

SPEAKER_00 15:39

All of the sacraments have an epiclesis, correct?

SPEAKER_02 15:42

Uh in a sense, yeah. So all the sacraments, the there's not an extension of hands necessarily, but there's there's a calling down of the Holy Spirit on a lot of them. Uh yes, so there yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:53

So I'm just trying to keep keep up with you here.

SPEAKER_02 15:56

Okay, yeah, yeah, for sure. Uh yeah, there's a there's a calling down of the Holy Spirit and all them. There's not like so in the sense, so with Eucharist, there's a specific point in which the priest will extend his hands, his hands over the bread and wine, uh, and then oh at uh confirmation, there's a specific point uh at which the bishop will extend his hands over those to be confirmed. Uh anointing of the sick, there's a specific point in which, you know, uh the priest will put his hands on the person to to to pray with them. So yeah, they're all have a calling of the Holy Spirit, but there's uh some some have a specific moment in which you know the hands are actually extended, right?

SPEAKER_00 16:33

I I noticed that the bishop called for you and Father Patrick to extend your hands in a blessing too during the ceremony.

SPEAKER_02 16:41

Yeah, so we we joined with him. So at confirmation there's uh this extending of uh of hands. So the bishop, um, in a sense, he can he can delegate, we share in his ministry. Uh and so uh the proper uh uh minister of uh the sacrament of confirmation is the bishop. Uh but he can we can do that. Obviously, we do that at the Easter vigil when we bring people in the church, right? Right. And so it's in a sense of the shared priesthood that the bishop would then invite us to do that at the end of the year.

SPEAKER_00 17:06

It was kind of neat that he called you to join him in that. It was very beautiful.

SPEAKER_02 17:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:12

I'm sorry, I digress a little bit here, but it was it impressed me very nice. Uh yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_02 17:18

Yeah, so every every every sacrament has to have the right matter. You have to have the right stuff, right? Yep, gotta have the right stuff. For sure. And then otherwise I have to have the right form, right? So uh so yeah, the form is like the prayers that are prayed, right? So uh the priest or deacon has to say, you know, I baptize you in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. You know, the priest has to use the right words of of consecration uh and and all these things. Uh because it's in a sense of you're using uh the intention of the church. Uh it's not magic, but it's just the sense of there's an there's a there's a properness, there's a supernatural part on it. Yeah, this is what we've been given, and this is how we this is how we how we pray this, because words matter, right? So yeah, the matter matters. Indeed, it all it all matters.

SPEAKER_00 18:05

It all does. It all does.

SPEAKER_02 18:07

Yeah, so these are the outward signs, right? That there's there's physical things and there's there's rituals and prayers, and and they all need in order for a sacrament to be uh valid, you know, that it actually happens, you know, that what the church is intending actually happens, you have to have the right matter in the right form, right?

SPEAKER_00 18:23

Okay, okay.

SPEAKER_02 18:25

So uh so going back to the Baltimore uh catechism definition or the the catechism definition, you know, it's an outward sign instituted by Christ. So the reality is all these sacraments, you know, come from the words and actions of Jesus. They weren't just like later developments, oh we needed something to do in the church, we needed to keep busy, so let's let's do this, let's add the sacraments to our list of uh tasks for the day. That they they came from the words and actions of Jesus. And we could we don't have time to go into all the scriptural kind of points right now, but uh uh they all come from Jesus. And the reason why the sacraments have power uh that these are actually uh places of encounter with Jesus is because they come from him himself, right?

SPEAKER_00 19:07

Right. So you said that so quickly because it's so fluid with you, you kind of almost gloss over it, but but the encounter with Jesus. These aren't just symbols, these are a true encounter with Jesus. And that's that's uh to me a very heartwarming feeling. Sure, sure.

SPEAKER_02 19:26

Yeah, and then then the last part, it's an outward sign instituted by Christ that gives grace. So that ultimately uh it's um yeah, it it it changes something within us. It the God is is somehow offered to us, his his very life, his very presence is offered to us uh through the sacrament. I mean, very tangibly, we had celebrated second graders uh celebrated first communion this last Saturday. So in a very real way, they receive the real presence of Jesus, right?

SPEAKER_00 19:54

And pro just prior to that they celebrated their first reconciliation, another sacrament.

SPEAKER_02 19:59

Right, right. Where the right here and now they receive the forgiveness of God, you know, through the through the voice of the priest, right? To be able to hear someone's voice is very meaningful. Yep, right? Uh, because it just gives a confirmation right here and now. Mark, where did you celebrate your sacraments?

SPEAKER_00 20:15

A couple of places. Uh, I celebrated uh a lot of my initiation at St. Mary in Elyria, Ohio. Parish has been there for many, many years, and I think I mentioned this, I know I mentioned this on a podcast prior. I was baptized at St. Mary's in Elyria. My father was baptized, his father was baptized, and his father was baptized. That's four generations. Yeah. And the father before that, the fifth, uh, was married there. So uh all of my uh uh initiation was at St. Mary's, so that would have been the the three. My marriage was at St. Thomas More, which I mentioned last uh week when we talked about marriage, and Eucharist here now, you know, all all of those. Uh but uh sure.

SPEAKER_02 21:05

But yeah, I was uh I was baptized at Immaculate Conception in Kenmore. And then um let's see, and then St. Francis Seals uh in Portage Lakes, then I received you had most of the the other initiation uh yeah, confirmation and and Eucharist, and then obviously then uh priesthood at St. John's, you know, cathedral and downtown uh and everything. So I just and I I when I share my vocation story with the kids, uh I'll show them a picture of the home parish and stuff. And I just it strikes me, you know, part of the sacraments, right? It's not just these merit badges of things we do uh in in the growth and life of faith. But uh again, to go back to re re say, you know, this is a place of a specific encounter with Jesus that I it's like right here. I was standing here when I was confirmed. Yeah. Or I was I was at this font when I was baptized, or you know, who and whoever it is. It's like there was a specific place on the earth. And a specific moment in time in which this happened. And you can actually um, you know, if the parish is still open or whichever, you can actually go there. And Immaculate Conception is now unfortunately uh has recently closed because of the um just the parish and the the neighborhood and lots of challenges and things.

SPEAKER_00 22:18

But I hope I hope St. Mary stands forever. I I can go back there. It's one of those old, old gothic architecture kind of churches with all the spires and everything. It's just such a beautiful place. And yeah, I it it all happened there for me.

SPEAKER_02 22:33

Right, right. Yeah, and whether the I mean, so and whether the parish is open or not, I mean it's it's still the sense of like it was right there that this that this happened.

SPEAKER_00 22:41

There was a specific place on this earth that it happened.

SPEAKER_02 22:44

And I think that's just satisfying for us as humans, right?

SPEAKER_00 22:47

It's it's very tangible. Yeah, that's what the sacraments are.

SPEAKER_02 22:51

So yeah, so I think uh it's just really cool to point to point that out. Okay, so uh with that, we wanted to talk about kind of the end of the conversation. You're talking about why why is marriage a sacrament? So so if we have if we have to have matter and form with each sacrament, so you have to have stuff, uh, and then you have to have the right prayers, uh, in a sense. What would if with holy matrimony, what would be the what would be the matter that you need?

SPEAKER_00 23:16

Without overthinking it, it would be the couple. It would be the two people. It would be the husband and the wife. Right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 23:23

They are the matter. They are the ministers of the sacrament of holy matrimony, right? Yeah, then uh I don't have any I don't have any prizes or that's all right.

SPEAKER_00 23:32

That's all right. I can you can give me that book over there.

SPEAKER_02 23:34

I want to read it. Oh, yeah. Benediction. Okay. Well, I can give it on loan.

SPEAKER_00 23:37

Okay. Yeah. So uh the the matter the matter, the men, the man and the woman.

SPEAKER_02 23:42

Right. Uh uh, their their bodies, their lives, their hearts, right? Yep. Uh for sure. So and that's and that's where the reality is, oh, actually, so one of the options for uh a wedding mass, uh just culturally and historically, we haven't really done this, but there's actually an option where rather than you know the groom being at the front and the and the bride being at the back, and there's kind of a meeting uh in the church, there is actually an option for the couple to actually come down the aisle together and they're and they're the last they're the last in the liturgical procession.

SPEAKER_00 24:15

I did not know that at all.

SPEAKER_02 24:17

Yeah, so it's to say so the priest, so uh I as the priest, I'm just there to witness.

SPEAKER_00 24:22

Right. Right.

SPEAKER_02 24:22

I didn't know that. I'm just there to witness. They're the ones saying the the prayers.

SPEAKER_00 24:27

They're the ones they are the sacrament, right? They are the matter, and they're saying, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 24:31

Uh and the and then they're praying the prayers. They're giving the consent, they are praying or they're saying the vows.

SPEAKER_00 24:36

You're just witnessing it.

SPEAKER_02 24:37

I'm witnessing it. So yeah, so actually the priest would be the minister of of the mass, right? You know, the presider of the mass, but then the couple would be the ministers of the sacrament of matrimony, you know. So it's uh whoever is last in a liturgical liturgical procession is the minister. Is the minister.

SPEAKER_00 24:54

I I bet a lot of people didn't don't look at it that way. I that's it.

SPEAKER_02 24:58

Yeah, it's it's not commonly done because of cultural things and this and that, but it is an option.

SPEAKER_00 25:02

But I mean, even the concept of the the married couple being the ministers of that, you know, I don't I think people kind of miss that point a lot of times. I did. I certainly did.

SPEAKER_02 25:11

Yeah. Well, it's and it's in a similar way. They're different sacraments, uh, but you know, with ordination, uh, you know, the priest himself, the man himself becomes a priest. And there's actually there's actually uh an ontological change. Uh big, big uh ten dollar word, right? Yep. Uh on ontology is the study of being. So we're talking about natures, right? So things have a nature. This phone has a uh something behind it, it wasn't makes it what it is, right? So at the level of being, someone changes it. Baptism has an ontological character, so it means your soul actually changes when you're baptized. At confirmation, there's an ontological change, meaning and you can only have that happen once. And that change is permanent. Right. So you can only be baptized once, you can only be uh confirmed or ordained uh once, right? And you can't be unbaptized. You cannot be untimmed and bishop said that the other day, right? You can't be unconfirmed. No one can tell you that. Indeed. So there's there's there's this deep uh there's this deep change. And uh one of the other things I think is interesting that I that I point out to my couple, so there's also the so in the in the wedding mass, right, you have uh the offertory rite, which is a part of every mass, right? So and I think this through this really gets to the I think it gets to the heart of why we of why we celebrate mass too. You know, it gets it it flushes out something, if you will, something really important. But I I highlight it for the wedding, uh, for the wedding mass and the couples. So the offertory rite is is what? You know, it's when we bring the gifts of of bread and wine uh from the back of the church to the front of the church, right? Yes. But it's not simply you know the intermission where we need to do the collection, there's more going on there. There there's there this this is a ritual, right? Right. So we don't need the gifts to be at the back of the church. You know, we could have them up close to the altar, right? Right. To say there's there's meaning here, right? So it's it's the offertory right, it's the it's the offering right. You know, I suppose, I mean, going back real quick, I mean, suppose what would you have in the the Jewish, the Israelite, the Jewish faith in the temple, right? You'd have people bringing their offerings to the priest to be sacrificed and offered to God. Right. Their lambs or doves or whatever they would be. For sure. And so Jesus has accomplished the sacrifice on the cross, right? But the mass is referred to as the holy sacrifice. And so as we bring the gifts forward, they represent Jesus, right? His own flesh and blood to be offered for us. But in a real sense, they also represent our own flesh and blood. They represent us as we are being offered through the priest to the Father, right? Our it's about our lives being sanctified, our lives being offered in worship.

SPEAKER_00 28:00

It was explained to me that at a mass I'm taking my sacrifice and laying it on the altar with Jesus.

SPEAKER_02 28:06

Right, right. It's uh us and Jesus the other.

SPEAKER_00 28:08

All my troubles, all my sacrifice, my sacrifice of my whole humanity, I'm laying down with them.

SPEAKER_02 28:14

But even right, and then to the point of sacramentality, again, this being able to experience this right in real time. Right. There's something about, you know, whether we've brought up the gifts or not, or whether we see them brought up, you know, it there's something happening here that we we understand that this is where I offer myself. Yes. Right. Right here and right now. So and then with the couples, I'll I'll point that out because it's really, you know, what they're doing is laying down their lives for each other as they as they speak their vows. Uh so if they are the matter, then the vows are the form. You know, this is this is what is prayed, this is what in is intended.

SPEAKER_00 28:50

The covenants that they're declaring for each other, that is the form.

SPEAKER_02 28:54

Right, right. Right. And so, um, yeah, it's just in this real moment, I'll point out to the to the couples that it's like, you know, what are you bringing to this day? Obviously, yourselves. You know, what are your joys? What are your dreams? What are your struggles? What are your things you know you need help with that ultimately you're not gonna be able to solve together? You know, that ultimately uh the sacrament and entering into marriage as a sacrament means that we need God's help to live this out because we're not gonna be able to do it on our own. But to be truly free, total, and faithful and fruitful. But we need the Lord's help. Yes. And we can't do this on our own. And and then there's a joy because the Lord wants to enter in. Right?

SPEAKER_01 29:34

Right.

SPEAKER_02 29:34

And uh and it's the same thing with priesthood too, right? That's um I I can't be a priest without God. To say very s specifically, right?

SPEAKER_00 29:43

So and all the sacraments. I I think you you just mentioned something and it just popped into my head when you talked about uh bringing the bread and wine, etc. But the the communion song Taste and See is one of my favorites, and it's it's so cool to taste and see God through the uh Eucharist is such a very human, earthly, sacramental way to do it. And uh you you are basically it's our attempt to uh experience a God who created us uh in a very, very human few human way, so to speak. Absolutely. Yeah, I love that song.

SPEAKER_02 30:22

Yeah, I mean the the the hymns of the church really helped to help. But that's not a bad thing. They they help us to enter into the mystery of what we're experiencing, right?

SPEAKER_00 30:32

Hearing, singing, everything, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 30:35

And then so with that, you know, just kind of the final thought wouldn't to kind of put the point on, you know, how is Sarah marriage a sacrament? That ultimately, and Bishop Barron shares this, so I can share the video uh in the in the show notes today. That he's you know, he kind of helps to explain that you know the couple on their wedding day, they don't receive a sacrament, but they become a sacrament.

SPEAKER_00 30:59

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 30:59

Yeah. Mark, I shared with you the video before. What would what what what does that kind of mean? That they they don't just receive, but they but they become.

SPEAKER_00 31:06

They become one. They change, just like you changed when you became a priest. They are no longer two, they become one, they lay down their lives for each other to become one with God.

SPEAKER_02 31:20

Right. Yeah, with with marriage, there's not an ontological change, um, but there is a substantial change. The relationship is different. You know, this is not just you've come to the church and you got your certificate and you can ride off in the sunset, you know, that it's it's really about no your your relationship is now different, you know. Right. And uh in a in a beautiful, in a true good and beautiful way. The whole way you relate to each other and the whole way the world relates to you is different. Right. And because there's been an openness from the couple to let God in to that relationship specifically. Yes, right, and so you become a sacrament, you know, this relationship is different, and not just for the sake of the couple, but for the sake of the world, right?

SPEAKER_01 32:00

Right.

SPEAKER_02 32:00

Um, for transformation and and life, you know, within the world and and whatever way God intends uh for for for that couple, right? Right. And so it's to say, you know, if a sacrament is uh uh an outward sign instituted by Christ to give grace, if it's this uh way of uh making what's invisible visible, namely the presence and the love of God, it means that that couple's marriage, their relationship, becomes a particular place in which God's presence and love is known in the world.

SPEAKER_00 32:33

And you can see that through some very old couples who are married in love. You can see that.

SPEAKER_02 32:40

You can see God residing in those who really and truly embrace and live out, you know, faithfully the uh their marriage vows, and as they do that with a depth of faith and spirituality, as they embrace that vocation and live it as such, not just a simply a lifestyle, I think that's those those marriages are are are so powerful you know, f for the world, right? They give a witness and they have an impact in a way um that is kind of beyond our understanding. And so so that's the point. It's you don't receive a sacrament, you become a sacrament. And that's another way God wants to make himself present in the world. So very good. Great. All right. So there's a little about sacraments uh and marriage. Let's jump to our our uh our gospel here. Let's pray in the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Amen. Amen. Good and gracious God, in the Father, we see you thanks and praise for this day. Open our ears to hear your word proclaimed to us today. The Lord be with you. And with your spirit. A reading from the Holy Gospel according to Matthew. Glory to you, Lord. The eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the to the mountain to which Jesus had ordered them. When they saw him, they worshipped, but they doubted. Then Jesus approached and said to them, All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age. The gospel of the Lord. Praise to you, Lord Jesus Christ. Mark, I actually didn't look at the gospel from this weekend until now. It's kind of crazy, right? It it always is.

SPEAKER_00 34:32

It always seems to be, but this time in particular.

SPEAKER_02 34:35

I think this is a providence for us. This is a confirmation. You know, sometimes we we seek confirmations in our in our life. Like, Lord, am I am I doing the right thing? Am I, you know, like and the Lord speaks in different ways. I I feel like every gospel has lined up with our topic in some way. That that was what I was trying to say inarticulately.

SPEAKER_00 34:51

I think it happens almost all the time.

SPEAKER_02 34:53

Almost every time. Yeah. Uh okay, so here it is, right? Jesus um commands us to go baptized in a very specific way, right? Uh, in the name of the Holy Trinity. Uh He says, Behold, I am with you always until the end of the age. How does he want to be with us always? In time and space through the sacramental life of the church, right? So, and this is the to be clear, this is the gospel from the ascension, which we celebrate uh this Sunday. So I don't know any any kind of any further thought to that?

SPEAKER_00 35:20

Well, it it's a little off off your subject, but but I was intrigued by the line they worshiped, but they doubted. The line leads me to like, what exactly did they doubt? They worshiped, so they knew he was Lord, but they doubted. And it and it just kind of m takes me to my brokenness and my fears and my self-doubts and everything. But through the sacraments, Jesus is always there for me. Right. He was there for them.

SPEAKER_02 35:47

Right. Yeah, I think the key, that's really good to point out. I think the key is not that we doubt, the key is that we worship.

SPEAKER_00 35:53

That that's yes, that is so comforting to me. Right. That there are times I doubt myself and there's concerns and and anxieties and all that, but I always worship and I always trust.

SPEAKER_02 36:06

There are some days we're not feeling it. We don't we don't want to go to mass, we don't want to pray. We don't want to, you know, I I experience that's this too, you know, at times in my life, right? If I have to be honest with myself, right?

SPEAKER_01 36:15

Right.

SPEAKER_02 36:15

The key is that, okay, but are we are we showing up to worship, knowing that this is this is how we're fed, this is how we connect with God, you know, and pressing into that uh can be that act of faith that can be so powerful, you know. I think I think also I think too, I think it points out the fact that we're entering into mystery with the sacraments. These aren't just rituals that are have surface level value, that there is depth here that is ultimately beyond our understanding. And so it's okay that we don't understand.

SPEAKER_00 36:45

Right, but we doubted could very well mean they didn't understand what where is he going.

SPEAKER_02 36:51

Right, right. And then otherwise, just to point out sacramentality and just like the importance of stuff, you know, Jesus he sends them to the mountain to which he ordered them, you know, a specific mountain, a specific place.

SPEAKER_00 37:02

I remember that from readings back at the at the he says, Tell them to go to Galilee and wait for me. Right. Specific places, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 37:09

You know, God has shown up, right? All right, let's pray. Oh, wait, uh prayer intentions. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 37:14

Today I want to pray for all those who feel detached or alone or in doubt or distant from the church, that they come back, that they realize that the sacraments are there and so readily available to them, and uh to let the Holy Spirit comfort them in those sacraments. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 37:33

Yeah, for sure. And then just keeping all of our our second graders or eighth graders in prayer, but then also the new priests who are going to be ordained. Um it'll be this morning, actually. When this like 13 of them or uh six. Oh, okay. Okay. There's deacons. They're deacons, yeah. So next year they're six priests, yes. Indeed. Yeah, but when this podcast out comes out, it'll be on that this Saturday morning that they'll be ordained at St. John's Cathedral and um hoping to be down there. It'll be really beautiful. So uh just keeping all those uh all those guys in in prayer. We'll we'll add their names to the the podcast notes uh today too. So all right, let's pray in the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Amen. Good and gracious God, Heavenly Father. We just praise you uh for this day of our lives, of uh of just your presence and ways to us, uh, seen and unseen. We just give you thanks for the sacraments, uh, these places of encounter uh with you and your presence and your love and your mercy uh in our lives. We ask you uh to help us to continue to enter in, open our eyes uh to see your presence. We pray for all those who are uh have been away from the sacraments, uh away from uh Holy Mass and the Eucharist, that their hearts may be awakened and opened uh to this opportunity uh to be with you, uh, to remain with you. And we give you thanks and praise, keep us safe, uh, keep us happy in this week. We ask this all in your name. Amen. Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

SPEAKER_00 38:53

Amen.

SPEAKER_02 38:54

All right. Well, thanks, Mark, for a good conversation today. Everyone, have a good week, and we'll catch you soon.