"Why We Believe There's A Hell"

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Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:20

Hello, hello, everybody. This is Father David. I'm Mark Turnus. And this is Unveiling Christianity. It's good. We were just laughing here a minute.

SPEAKER_01 0:28

We're in a little whimsical mood here.

SPEAKER_02 0:30

Yeah, it's good to laugh, right?

SPEAKER_01 0:31

I think so. I think I think it's a good thing. Have you been laughing a lot recently? I I have been. I've been in very, very good mood. You were very joyful. I was joyful when I came in until things kind of fell apart in the room here, and you were you went on this little rage. So I didn't know if you wanted to talk about that or not.

SPEAKER_02 0:49

Well, my rage, what's up with it?

SPEAKER_01 0:51

He rolled up this piece of fabric and he's looking around the room, and I'm I'm thinking, is there a mouse or something in there? Long story short, he's chasing a fly, a very loud, buzzing fly. I don't like flies. You apparently don't. I mean, the look on his face was not love.

SPEAKER_02 1:09

And he was It was a very big fly, a very loud fly. If we were podcasting down here, it was going to be very distracting.

SPEAKER_01 1:16

It would have been distracting for us, and the listeners probably could have even heard him. He was very loud. But for the most part, that fly was mocking you for a long time because you could not get him. He was. But you got the last laugh.

SPEAKER_02 1:28

Indeed. Flies. It's just interesting. You know, we live on this earth and you know every once in a while you just kind of think about things, I think, right? Mm-hmm. And uh you know, things are as they are, and we kind of take that for granted. I was out on a I did go out on a beautiful hike last night out at uh Salt Run in Peninsula, and I don't know, I was walking along. Oh, it's because I went on a hike there maybe last year or the year before, and I had a fly that did not it was chasing me. Hung with you. Like I I I ran at different points. I like was swatting, like it it did not it did not go away.

SPEAKER_01 2:07

But the hike was good, right?

SPEAKER_02 2:08

Well, no, because I was harassed by the biggest. No, the one last night. Oh, yes, it was very nice. Okay. Uh it was very nice, but I was I was reminded of that not so great hike. And but then I had the thought, like, what if like flies like were the size of basketballs? That would be problematic. It'd be horrible, right?

SPEAKER_01 2:26

It would be bad.

SPEAKER_02 2:28

Like in God's providence, he made like all these insects like really small. Like, what if like flies and worms and frogs were like huge?

SPEAKER_01 2:35

I think that is a very large concern of yours by the way you were running around this room. Now, to not to change the subject.

SPEAKER_02 2:44

Or bees. Like, what if bees were like basketball?

SPEAKER_01 2:47

Big carpenter bees that just hover right in front of you and they they just make the thankfully they're not like huge, like because that would be horrible.

SPEAKER_02 2:55

In any event, that's why we have fly swap.

SPEAKER_01 2:56

I was down in Tennessee and I had a most magnificent hike, a very early morning hike. And I'm just I'm not gonna belabor it, but it was so beautiful. I experienced this hike with all five senses. It you could smell everything, you could see the fog. You could the you could see the moisture dripping. It was it was beautiful. And I actually at the very top of the mountain, I grabbed some wild blackberries. So I actually tasted it. So it was a very, very good holy hike and close good good good encounter. Nice with God. It was it was beautiful. And what what we did, we did something very important. We we spaced it out. So we were walking almost 40 yards away from each other so that we could just take it in individually, so you're not you're not distracted to chatter and you know.

SPEAKER_02 3:43

You actually get the the quiet It was unbelievable anyway.

SPEAKER_01 3:47

Nice. Well, it's good. We both yeah, we both had some good hikes. Great hikes. That is good, and and we got the fly.

SPEAKER_02 3:53

We got the fly. So so uh prayers for all you people who are dealing with flies in your house and the this this summertime, you know. Yep. And we're in this together here. So yeah, summertime. It's really beautiful. The kids are out of school.

SPEAKER_01 4:04

I I noticed that today was their first day out.

SPEAKER_02 4:07

Uh yes. So last yesterday we're repr we're recording on Thursday here. That uh yeah, yesterday, Wednesday was our last day. So uh sad that was joyful.

SPEAKER_01 4:17

That was because of my vacation. So I I just got back into town from Chattanooga and uh you were gracious enough to postpone this because we didn't want to go two weeks without a without an episode. I was I was yeah, I was missing last time. So that's good.

SPEAKER_02 4:30

What uh what did you think you had to edit the re uh my my uh scrambling thoughts in the book? I did, I did.

SPEAKER_01 4:35

I I got to edit it and I listened to it actually. A couple things, I'm not gonna try to resummarize it or say something that you didn't absolutely say, but what I kind of gleaned from it is a couple of things. And I think one of the things that really struck me is I think reflecting, I think it's a lost art. I think people are in such a hurry. They're they're just ready to go, they're running at breakneck speed to get to the next thing, to get to the next thing. They just don't know how to slow down. We can have a whole podcast on slowing down, I would think.

SPEAKER_02 5:04

Yeah, that was kind of like a an an offshoot topic, like the art of slowing down, having like a rule of life so that we actually can have space for reflection, right? Because I know one of the struggles, I mean, I have to pray in the morning, like I do my holy hour and everything. I have to do it in the morning because if not, like obviously your your mind and your heart get going on all the things of the day and everything. But then if I try to pray in the afternoon, I'm gonna fall asleep in 30 seconds.

SPEAKER_01 5:31

I I I get that, and I have picked up a good habit finally after all these years over Lent. Um, I am saying like an evening prayer now. Also, I can get a little tired, but I don't skip it. I just do the best I can, even if I'm kind of really tired. But uh evening prayer, morning prayer, but I I'm I can't I can't generate that calm in the middle of the day. You're right. I and it's a sad thing. I think I think part of the problem of people who who don't pray, and I was one of them, uh, people who don't pray, they're they're they their excuse is I don't have the time to pray. And that's kind of telling.

SPEAKER_02 6:08

I mean when you think about it, we all we all have time.

SPEAKER_01 6:11

You don't have the time to pray. Well, that is a very, very interesting uh it's like um what were you talking about golfing? I'm not good at golf. Why? Because I never get out and golf. I mean, it's like yeah, you if you if you want to pray, pray. Make the time to pray. And again, I'm not I'm not preaching because I I have come a long way with my prayer life, and I was not very good.

SPEAKER_02 6:35

Yeah, I mean making uh I'll make the comment to people sometimes, you know, making a making an opening in your schedule kind of implies an opening in the heart.

SPEAKER_01 6:43

Yep. That that's that's a beautiful thought, and and like just scheduling, not not putting it on a calendar, but I mean saying, you know, I'm gonna get up and before I really move about, even maybe before breakfast, I'm gonna say some my prayers.

SPEAKER_02 6:56

So yeah, just have some time for reflection on the day. And yeah, the Ignation Examine. I don't know if I mentioned that in the last podcast, but the ignition examin is a is a helpful way of uh you know of examining our thoughts and and our things, and but we can do another episode on on on that too.

SPEAKER_01 7:11

We should we should probably do an episode on prayer or two. I mean that's that's a few, probably. That's a huge topic.

SPEAKER_02 7:18

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:19

But anyway, I uh I thought you did a great job. It was nice, it was a good placeholder. I'm glad to be back. I hope our listeners didn't forget about me, but I am back.

SPEAKER_02 7:27

You are we are we are glad.

SPEAKER_01 7:28

We oh thank you.

SPEAKER_02 7:29

It's it's it is kind of strange doing a podcast by yourself.

SPEAKER_01 7:32

I don't know how you do it, and I can talk. People who know me will say Mark can talk. I don't know if I could talk for 20 minutes by myself without bouncing something off someone else. So who knows? Well maybe we'll it's no no no, that ain't gonna happen. But but you did a good job. It was it was that's hard to do, and and your five minutes turned a little longer, but it was it wasn't quite five minutes, but whatever. It's not just me, folks. I know I can talk forever and I go on my tangents, but it's okay. All right, surely we digress with that.

SPEAKER_02 8:04

Um, yeah. So summer, it's a good time. We're time to time to slow down and reflect a little bit, right? Yep. Uh as we do that, we're gonna move on to our next chapter here in Trenton Horns book. We only have two more, right? Yes. So uh we're talking about the last things. So this week, why we believe there's a hell, uh, and then why uh the last chapter is why we hope for heaven, I believe. Yes. Uh why we hope for heaven. So you got it. So we'll do that. Um it's kind of tying into uh a little bit of our last conversation together. So we talked about Pentecost, right? So what do we what do we emphasize with Pentecost? Do you remember? What's Pentecost? Why does it matter?

SPEAKER_01 8:42

Well, it's the the coming of the Holy Spirit, which is an incredibly poor important thing for the church. I mean, it actually created the church that day when he descended upon Mary and the apostles. It's a very, very important uh holiday where you celebrate the coming of the Holy Spirit, hopefully into your heart.

SPEAKER_02 9:00

Right, yeah, it's the the outpouring of God's presence and that we receive God's presence and then live with God in our lives. So it's really the missioning of the church. It's like uh almost like the New Easter of the of God's presence being poured out in the church and then being sent into mission uh on mission into the world. And uh yeah, so it's it's just it's just emphasizing the point that God is real and God wants to be very much a part of our lives the day-to-day. You know, we don't um as as Catholics, we're not deists. So uh to be a deist means it's kind of the to kind of have the belief or the image of God that God's kind of like He God created the world, but doesn't really have anything um to do with it.

SPEAKER_01 9:42

Kind of like a hands-off approach. Right. You're on your own now.

SPEAKER_02 9:45

Kind of the creator distant God. Right. So that's not really the that's not really the belief of of Christianity and Catholicism, you know, insofar as like God is created, yes, but he's sustaining constantly and he wants to be very much uh active. And a life of prayer, as we're as we'll go into this uh well, as we'll go into, you know, is is about accessing God and communing with God, about talking with God. So we're meant for a relationship with God. Uh that's a day-to-day reality and not just a oh at the beginning of our life and the end of our life kind of thought.

SPEAKER_01 10:16

Right. Right. Right. I'll get to it. I'll get to it, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 10:18

Right, right. So with that, you haven't heard about the the scripture, you know, the scripture passage uh that uh there's a sin against the Holy Spirit and it's an unforgivable sin.

SPEAKER_01 10:27

Yeah, I've I've heard that the the only unforgivable sin is a sin against the Holy Spirit.

SPEAKER_02 10:34

Right. Do you know what that any any sense of what that means?

SPEAKER_01 10:37

It has to be since the Holy Spirit is the love breathed back and forth from the Father and the Son, it would have to be a final conscious rejection of the love of of God.

SPEAKER_02 10:51

Right. Yeah, a rejection of God's God's presence or God's help. Yeah, right. And and yeah, so it there is an unf there Jesus says there is an unforgivable sin. Excuse me. Not in the sense of God doesn't want to forgive the sin, right? God always obviously like you know uh the prodigal son and the the good shepherd and everything. God God wants to go come after every one of us, right? No matter how far we may come go from him.

SPEAKER_01 11:16

He restless restlessly seeks after us, right?

SPEAKER_02 11:19

Right. So it's not a question of whether God doesn't want to forgive it, it's it's whether God can God forgive it. And God can't forgive sins that we don't want to offer to him. Right. Right. If we're not sorry for doing something, uh which you know, just because we struggle with something, and if we happen to do a particular sin again, that's a different story. Um if we're genuinely not sorry that we did something, God can't forgive that. It's an unforgivable sin, right?

SPEAKER_01 11:46

And that would be the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.

SPEAKER_02 11:49

Yeah, and blasphemy against the Holy Spirit insofar as like uh I'm kind of actively rejecting God's presence in my life here and now. Right.

SPEAKER_01 11:55

You know, I don't need him. I'd rather have, you know, uh it was Father Mike Schmitz who said uh, if we want not God, we get not God. So you can reject it if you want. I I know there's a bunch of negatives there, but if you want not God, you get not God.

SPEAKER_02 12:13

Not God, right? Yeah. Yeah, and so that's what we're here to talk about a little bit today. So, you know, as Catholics and Christians, you know, we do believe that there is a hell. We believe there's heaven uh and hell, and there's an ultimate um consequence for our lives, that our our actions do uh matter, right? That uh they don't not matter, they they do matter. And Jesus uh we'll talk about you know Jesus talks about this a lot in his ministry and everything.

SPEAKER_01 12:37

So I read I read somewhere that that there's no other person in the entire Bible who mentions hell more than Jesus of Nazareth. And I think that might be true. So we'll see. But he talks about it a lot.

SPEAKER_02 12:51

Yeah, maybe first, um, yeah, maybe just in even just your initial thought. Like what when we when we talk about hell, it's not something we talk about very often, right? Right. Um what do you what do you think? And then uh and then Andrew, like, um what do you think other people think about uh hell and everything?

SPEAKER_01 13:07

Okay, I think I'm very passionate about a lot of things in my faith. Hell isn't really one of them. I don't really, I'm not super passionately thinking about hell. To me, I guess I'd rather think about getting things right in my life than opposed to thinking about what would happen if I get things wrong in my life. Now that doesn't mean I don't believe in hell. I clearly believe in it. The concept uh in the catechism I totally believe in. I think it's a very scary thing. It's a very scary thing to a lot of different people, primarily, um, because we've grown kind of cozy with sin, uh a way to put it, that that um it's it might be easy to get there. And and I think that really bothers people, and a lot of people don't want to talk about it. You know, how easy is it to get to hell? And we can talk a little bit about that, but I think you also asked, you know, what do what do I think? I've talked to other people about this, and and what I've found is people avoid talking about hell. Um, people aren't very knowledgeable about hell, what it is, whether they believe it, they don't think about it that much, or they're very, very confused about what it is and and how you get there and how you avoid it and that sort of thing. So I think that's what I've kind of come across with with my friends when talking about it.

SPEAKER_02 14:28

Yeah, I can't say that I really talk about it much with you know, my my my friends are everything too, right? And but it is it is a teaching of the church, and uh, I think the key is like we're not Christians because um we're avoiding hell, we're Christians because we want to live for heaven. But with that, we have to acknowledge that there is this reality of hell, right? Okay, so let's go to um but I think you're right, it's not something we talk about because um if we consider it, it's rather weighty and and dark. A little bit weighty and heavy, right? Yeah. Uh and so yeah. It's not maybe to your say about the coziness, I think um in our modern situation where you know God is considered less, you know, in the general culture and things, it's it's just not really a consideration. It's just kind of like my life right here and now, and I'll think about tomorrow, tomorrow.

SPEAKER_00 15:18

Right.

SPEAKER_02 15:18

And you know, it but there is a ultimately we have the if ever if everyone was really honest with themselves, we do have a question about what's gonna happen to me after I die.

SPEAKER_01 15:28

Right. You can avoid asking the question, but the question's still inside you. The question's still there.

SPEAKER_02 15:33

Yeah, the question's still there. And uh it's it's good that we ask the question, right? Uh in the sense of um I w you know this podcast is about unveiling Christianity, about there's something true, good, and beautiful uh about what we're talking about. Not hell is not beautiful, for sure, but we want to talk about God and in that whole uh arrangement. Okay, so what it I mean, so we want to say like what does the church actually believe about hell? So uh catechism definition here is uh this is paragraph ten thirty-three. To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God's merciful love means remaining separated from him forever by your own free choice. The state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called hell. End quote. Okay, so first obviously we make this distinction between venial and mortal sin in the church to say there are bigger sins and lesser sins. There are sins that kind of damage our relationship with God, uh, and there are sins that really do uh rupture our relationship with God. Uh it's not to say we're unbaptized, right? Uh because you can't be unbaptized, but there's this real sense of, you know, especially if you look at the Old Testament, like they follow false idols and they, you know, all of these and do all of these things, you know, the covenant has been broken. Right. And so the scripture story is about how God continually renews the covenant with his people. Ultimately, because of Jesus now, the covenant can't be not fully the covenant can't be fully undone. It's been made once and for all because Jesus, God, became human and established that covenant. And our baptism is through him. But at the same time, so yes, we are saved through Jesus, but we can choose to not live with Jesus. We can choose to do our own thing. And um yeah, and there's there's consequences to that. And and uh and and Jesus talks about that.

SPEAKER_01 17:26

This might be like a little off off track, the point I'm trying to make. There's a saying or a reading I read somewhere that that the the narrative of salvation and the people and the fall and and the people wandering away from God and false idols, that narrative arc plays out in every individual soul uh over you know throughout your own life. So it's a very personal playing out of that narrative arc of of salvation. And I think that kind of goes back to the point you were saying about you know uh the people worshiping false idols and we all need saved from Egypt.

SPEAKER_02 18:06

Yes, in a sense, exactly, exactly. So the Israelite people, yeah, it's it's all representative of us, right? Right. Uh yeah, and that's a way of entering into the scriptures, especially. I mean, the Old Testament, whenever God's people was referred to, we can replace that with our own selves. Uh when Jesus is interacting with anyone in the scriptures, you know, um the the woman caught in adultery, whether a man were a woman, like that's us, the prodigal sons, you know, uh the prodigal son, the one who runs away, the one who is full of uh disdain at his younger son. Exactly and is resentful of the father's mercy because, you know, right.

SPEAKER_01 18:40

That's in that's in so many people.

SPEAKER_02 18:42

Yeah, so that all of that is with you know the the the story of the scriptures is uh is our own story.

unknown 18:47

Right.

SPEAKER_02 18:48

And it speaks to our heart. So but yeah, entering into it, we all need we all need liberated from Egypt. And and it it is the reality that we need saved. That we're not it's not just like, oh, be a good person and you know, live your life and um and everything. Like we have to live we're called to be saints ultimately. We're not just called to be good people. And there's a reason why we're called to be saints because being a saint is op opposite of one who is not a saint, one who would be would be choosing hell for themselves in a sense, right? So but yes, but the whole point is God is with us in the journey. He wants no one to be clear, God wants no one in hell. God wants no one to be separated from him. And that's what the catechism definition, you know, says it's not like a physical place. Right. Just as in we'll talk about next time. You know, hell is heaven is not a physical place, but it's a it's a state, you know, of of being with God in perfect union and communion and blessedness uh versus hell is the opposite of that. Hell is we have chosen life apart from God, so we're gonna get more of that, right? And there's even that famous, you know, writing, uh Dante's Inferno that he talks about the layers of hell. And uh it's not describing uh literally this is what it is, it's just it's what you chose in life you'll get more of. What you lived for life what you live for in life you'll get more of. And uh it's interesting, you know, we most of us have images of hell as like fire and flames and all these things. He actually has hell as ice, right? You know, right, right. Yeah, Satan's stuck in ice and it's like a side. You know, think about ice, it's just this coldness, you know, you can't move, you can't, you know, there's just it's it's kind of lifeless, right?

SPEAKER_01 20:21

Out of out of love, God gives you what you want. And if it's not God, you're gonna get it.

SPEAKER_02 20:28

Well, so the the free will, this is a big part of this, right? Right, right, right, right. So free will. So in the in the definition, by our own free choice. So God gives us free will, right? So we know we can choose things, right? That we are not robots. So ultimately, God gives us to God. That's what I'm saying, right? Yeah, so we're not robots, we're not slaves, we're not forced to do anything, right? Because in our conversation about marriage, right, uh, love cannot be a force. It has to be freely chosen and given, right?

SPEAKER_01 20:55

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 20:56

So God gives us free will. And uh the beauty of that is that we can choose love, right? We can choose uh being heroic, we can choose selflessness and sacrifice, we can we can choose very beautiful and good things. But if he gives us that gift, it's also the case that we can also choose the opposite of that. We can choose sin, we can choose you know, ourselves, we can choose um destruction and and all of that. And and God does not want any of that, right? But the whole the whole point of Christianity is that even though God allowed this, he entered into the story and then took upon all of our sin in Jesus and out of love chose that, right? The h the the height of God's of God's love and then um yeah, destroyed all all of it on the cross. So through th so through him and with him and in him, we can we can move uh away from from hell, we can move away from that which you know destroys our lives and we can move to a fuller life with him.

SPEAKER_01 21:55

Right. Just a second ago you you you said something uh that struck me. God doesn't put anybody in hell. Right. You kind of choose it, you put yourself in hell. And I think uh C.S. Lewis had a great line that always struck me as very, very tangible. The door to hell, he said, is always locked from the inside. You lock yourself in. God doesn't lock you into hell. You make that choice.

SPEAKER_02 22:23

Yeah, for sure. So just to emphasize, you know, it is a teaching of the church. It is something that Jesus actually talks about a lot. Not because he's very interested in it, because because he he spends a lot more time, right, talking about uh uh the kingdom of God. He talks about conversion, he spends most of his time, you know, healing people, but also casting out demons, right? Yes. To say that um the spiritual world is is very real. He he does spend time doing this, and they're not simply analogies, you know, that we we believe in spiritual warfare and and and the demonic world for sure. But he talks about you know um in the scriptures, you know, a hell is a place of fire and undying worms, uh, hopefully not large worms, right? Or large flies. Or flies. Actually, that would be it. That would be your hell. Maybe huge flies. Maybe basketball. The gnashing of teeth, the outer darkness, uh gehenna. Yeah. Right? So Jesus does talk about it, right? He's he's he's honest, right? He's candid, uh, but he's charitable, right?

SPEAKER_00 23:22

Right.

SPEAKER_02 23:23

And yes, but all of it is for the sake of uh not just making us afraid. Jesus doesn't want to make us afraid, right? He doesn't want to fill us with fear, right? He sent the Holy Spirit to fill us with his presence, with encouragement and everything.

SPEAKER_01 23:37

But he is just, but he's just all about justice, and and truly he talks about in Matthew's gospel he the the final judgment and the goats and the sheep and what's going to happen.

SPEAKER_02 23:49

Those who cared for me, you know, why the that's a that's a tough all of the all of the different people, right?

SPEAKER_01 23:55

You know, when when did we see you, you know, hungry and thirsty and naked? When did we see that? You know, and I don't know you because of that. I mean, that's that's very true.

SPEAKER_02 24:04

Right. So he does he does say there are consequences, and I think that's where God's justice is related to this this topic, right? So God is just. Yeah, insofar as you know, there are consequences for our actions, right? When we're when we're kids, we we grow up knowing that there are consequences for actions, right? Right. And if we if you touch the stove that's on, you're going to burn yourself. Right. Right. And you And that's why parents have the rules, don't touch a stove, not because they're being mean and just you know, trying to control us, because no, I don't I don't want you to hurt yourself. I don't want you to choose something that's going to hurt you.

SPEAKER_01 24:38

Don't run out into the street. All those all those things we teach our children is is for their good.

SPEAKER_02 24:44

Right. So yeah, I mean there's all kinds of uh depictions we have of hell and uh it is kind of mocked maybe in our in our kind of postmodern kind of day uh and everything. Uh I mean there's all kinds of TV shows with uh Lucifer and demons and uh and this and that. Yep. But uh it is a reality and it's it's not unfair. It's it's it's just because God gives us again the option to to follow him in life and everything. And ultimately, yeah, it's not about our own standard, but it's about Jesus' standard. It's about not just being simply a good person, but it's about being a saint. It's about being someone who lives uh love heroically, uh, as as as Jesus did, understanding that yes, it's not on our own power, it's not by ourselves that we do this, it's through the Holy Spirit, it's through God's help and grace and cooperation that's probably the most important thing.

SPEAKER_01 25:33

We can become the people who we've got to do. We can't get to heaven by ourselves. No, because that's a wrong statement, too, right? Yep, yep. That's a bad statement. So it's anything is because of the mercy and the love of God. So Yes.

SPEAKER_02 25:46

Uh so just to emphasize, obviously, there's uh we're not getting into all the we're kind of just speaking of this generally, what Trent has in his chapter as to what hell looks like and everything, we don't know, right? Insofar as we don't have an experience of that. And the church is to be clear, the church has never declared anyone in hell. That's not for us to declare.

SPEAKER_01 26:06

But they also declared it's not empty.

SPEAKER_02 26:09

Um we don't believe that yes, we don't believe it's not empty. Maybe the church hasn't declared. Universalism is a sense that, well, there there is no one in hell and hell is empty. There is a great discussion on this, right? And you can you can look online to tons of articles uh on this. But um, I think it's it is Jesus saved us from something.

SPEAKER_01 26:28

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 26:29

Right. Jesus saved us from something. Because if he didn't save us from something, then why did he do it? Then why did it happen, right? And why do we need to continually, why is the invitation to continually walk with God in life? Sure. So at the end of our lives we don't experience this eternal separation. Um but yes, then also that we don't experience hell in our own lives, because that is the reality. When we choose sin, when we choose a life apart from God, we do experience hell, and we see that in our world, unfortunately, um, in different ways, with all the warfare and division and and and addiction, addiction, uh everything like everything like that. That's uh that's a those are hellish experiences, right? But you know, we're here as disciples, and Jesus talked about the kingdom of God, and uh it's far more powerful than the kingdom of darkness, right? Yes, he just said that the the gates of hell uh shall not prevail against it, right? Yes, so which actually is an interesting thought because the gates of hell shall not prevent you know shall not stand, right?

SPEAKER_01 27:24

It almost goes the opposite way, that's right.

SPEAKER_02 27:26

The the church is actually should is on the uh on on the offensive here, right?

SPEAKER_01 27:31

Yes, that's what I was trying to inarticulately say. Yeah, the church is actually on the attack, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 27:36

Right, and so and how do we attack through faith, hope, and love. Exactly. And all of these uh and all these things. So a little scattering of thoughts here on this uh this podcast today, but um I just want to emphasize the points that Trent has at the end of the chapter. Since God is love, he never forces anyone to love or obey him, but allows those people to live apart from him for all eternity in a state that is called hell. God is just because he punishes evil by allowing unrepentant sinners to choose their own sin over his goodness in life. But then also God is merciful, since God is merciful, he gives everyone an opportunity to know him, reject sin, and choose eternal life through his son, Jesus Christ. Right?

SPEAKER_01 28:20

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 28:21

And um yeah, and in so far as we we talk about hell as as um as a church, uh it's a part of our message, it's just not even anywhere near close to all of the message or the importance of the message, right? The mess the message is Jesus has come, died, rose, and has saved us, and we want to invite people into a life with him, right? And so that's that's the good news. We're here about the good news. So but well, to be but but to be honest about the other side.

SPEAKER_01 28:46

So yeah, it was a tough subject because it's so broad, but I think we uh kind of summarized it as best we could.

SPEAKER_02 28:53

It's not easy, for sure. And I think we're I uh disclaimer, we're trying to have this, uh we're trying to present this as best we can, right? We're right, uh not the top theologians and everything, and we don't we're not trying to do that. We're trying to simply say that there's a deeper why as to why the church you know teaches what it teaches, and ultimately uh it's a good thing, uh, insofar as you know this helps us to have uh some fuel of living the Christian life, you know.

SPEAKER_01 29:15

Right.

SPEAKER_02 29:16

That uh I do need to turn my life around in some ways, and all of us do in in some way.

SPEAKER_01 29:20

So Yeah, and for my friends, hell exists, but through God's mercy, you got a good chance to avoid it if you want. Heaven is possible. Heaven is possible.

SPEAKER_02 29:30

Heaven is possible and is in his reality and uh and is promised to us insofar as we live with him, right? Yes. So all right. Well with that, well let's jump to our gospel. All right, let's pray. Amen. The Lord be with you. And with your spirit. Reading from the Holy Gospel, according to John. Glory to you, Lord. Jesus said to the Jewish crowds, I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats this bread will live forever, and the bread that I will give is my flesh for the life of the world. The Jews quarreled among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat? Jesus said to them, Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I'll raise him up on the last day. For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him. Just as the living Father sent me, and I have life because of the Father, so also the one who feeds on me will have life because of me. This is the bread that came down from heaven, like your ancestors who ate and still died. Whoever eats this bread will live forever. The gospel of the Lord.

SPEAKER_01 30:53

Praise to you, Lord Jesus Christ.

SPEAKER_02 30:56

Alright, John 6, today we have the Corpus Christi weekend. It's a solemnity, the most holy body and blood of our Lord Jesus Christ, right? Yes. So it's a beautiful feast. Uh yes, uh what's up? I know it's John 6. I know there's a lot in here.

SPEAKER_01 31:10

This is John 6, and you're gonna you're gonna pin me to one line like that.

SPEAKER_02 31:13

Yeah, what's uh what what jumps out of you?

SPEAKER_01 31:14

Um one line, if I had to pick one line. Uh whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him. And when I when I receive the body of Christ at Mass, He's in me. God is is is physically in me, he's he's spiritually in me, and I am in him. And it's kind of a a foretaste uh preview of of eternal life. Right. And and I I think it reminds me also, without going on too long, it reminds me of it a little bit earlier in chapter six, uh Jesus says, The will of my father is this that any everyone who sees the Son and believes in him will have eternal life and I'll raise him on the last day. Right. So it's something to something for me to pray about. Sure. Especially this week. Sure.

SPEAKER_02 32:07

Um for those unaware, um with the the word Jesus uses to eat my flesh, uh so he's talking to a Jewish crowd, right? Uh we get that detail at the beginning. Uh tr I think I believe the word is trogon or something. It is trogon, which is I know what that means. Yeah, there you go. I do. Uh to eat he invites us to eat his flesh. The trogon is uh I believe a Greek word, right? It is a Greek word. That that means like chewing or gnawing or nibbling, uh, if you will. And yeah, so he's he's pointing to the reality. Like this is not just representative of me, but is truly my flesh and blood, right? Which is uh yeah, I mean, in a sense, a crazy thing to believe, right? It's yeah, that's my other line was the quarreled about it. They quarreled. A hard teaching. People left Jesus because of this teaching, right? Uh, but I think it just emphasizes the point, you know, we're talking about hell today. Yeah, that's that's I mean, maybe hard and heavy, but uh it is the reality that uh, you know, God wants to uh accompany us, God wants to help get us to heaven, and he literally gives uh his his flesh and blood to us sacramentally in the Eucharist. And um that's just such a great encouragement in our lives as we as we go. And yeah, we make mistakes and failures and everything, but we have the sacraments to console us in Jesus with Jesus' presence that we can we can hand over our brokenness and our sins to him in confession and uh receive absolution and then be united with him in the Eucharist. And ultimately the Eucharist points to heaven, which we'll talk about next time, which is which is the goal and why we're here. You know, we're not here because of hell, we're here because of heaven. And um yeah, but uh just a beautiful feast uh to focus on and um yeah, just focusing on the gift of the Eucharist. So all right. Any prayer intentions?

SPEAKER_01 33:45

Um yes. On the eve of Corpus Christi, uh a very short that the whole world comes to believe Jesus.

SPEAKER_02 33:56

Yeah, but absolutely but yeah, and I'm gonna uh pray for uh anyone who's struggling with addiction, I think. Um, you know, just anyone who's uh struggling with addiction of any kind, that uh it's kind of uh really a a hellish experience, you know, to be addicted to something. And uh yeah, just the prayers for their their their liberation, for their freedom, you know, anyone going through anyone going through AA and everything. And um yeah, they just may be blessed and given encouragement uh in this time as they as they seek freedom. All right, let's pray. Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit, amen. Uh, uh in our lives. Um we ask you to continue to pour out the grace of the Holy Spirit upon us. Spirit of encouragement, a spirit of joy, that we may be um joyful about your presence in our in our lives. Uh we pray for all those who are away from the church, away from the faith, uh, away from the sacraments in this time, that they may uh have a uh renewed sense of God's presence, an invitation uh to them for a full life. We pray for anyone who's struggling with uh any addiction or uh or darkness or heaviness, anxiety, uh, that they may be blessed uh today as well uh with uh with God's presence. And we just entrust this time and this week to you, uh, knowing that you have good things in store for us. Uh and we pray this all as we wrap this up through the uh intercession of our blessed Mother Mary, who always watches out over us uh as we pray. Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen. Father, Son, Holy Spirit, Amen. All right, everybody. Well, have a great uh day, and we'll catch you next week.