Unveiling Christianity

"Why We Hope For Heaven"

Unveiling Christianity Season 1 Episode 36

Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.

0:00 | 28:03

Holy Family Summerfest - https://share.google/5Ag6iyjnpkBTZUSij

Music Copyright: https://artlist.io/

SPEAKER_00

Hello everybody. This is Father David, Mark Turnus. Welcome to another exciting, maybe potentially spontaneous show of unveiling Christianity here today. We're not ready. We're ready, ready? I'm ready. I just wanted you to continue talking about SpongeBob.

SPEAKER_01

I was talking about SpongeBob because you asked me if I was ready, and I'm not, and I said, I'm ready.

SPEAKER_00

I just didn't expect you to quote Spongebob. It was great. I didn't know that quote was going to come from there.

SPEAKER_01

Oh, okay. Well, that quote definitely came from there. And then and then I says, Well, you probably don't even know that, but you're as old as my son, and my son grew up on Spongebob, so you have to know Spongebob.

SPEAKER_00

That's true. How many episodes of SpongeBob would you say you've watched?

SPEAKER_01

A significant amount of episodes. And and then I'm not even going to say how many times I've watched them. There are some episodes that are classic, like when uh Mrs. Puff teaches them how to drive. Anyway, I'm I'm digressing. Oh wow. You're a connoisseur. Oh, I am I am an expert.

SPEAKER_00

It's just it's just isn't it fun when you learn something about someone that you didn't expect?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, yeah. I I know more about Spongebob than I do about Hogan's Heroes, and I know about both shows.

SPEAKER_00

I know more about SpongeBob than Hogan's Heroes as well.

SPEAKER_01

But Hogan's Heroes is definitely my body. But SpongeBob is is is just amazing. You were you were just you did kind of I'm not gonna ask you to do it, you did a kind of a good little uh impression of SpongeBob, but I can do s I can do Squidward better than SpongeBob. Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Well we'll spare the people.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah we will definitely do that.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. Anyway, well, welcome everyone. We hope you're doing well today. We're just kind of we're just kind of jumping here. It's kind of kind of a fun time, you know? So it's uh it's a beautiful day. It's a very, very fun time. June, here we are, right? It is here. Yeah, I uh went out to St. Gabriel's festival last Thursday. So St. Gabriel's out out in Concord Manor was my first parish. And they have a pretty, pretty massive um uh festival and everything. So shout out to them. It was good to go back and say hello and everything, which does remind us of our own festival coming up in uh in um in July, right? Summerfest. Yes. So kind of not the full festival we've done in the past, but still a really fun and exciting time. We got two nights of bands and food and games and bingo and all kinds of things, fireworks on your calendar. Friday night, right?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

And then uh a day of prayer on Sunday, so we'll have outdoor mass at 11:30. Adoration throughout the afternoon for the Eric Gerris is the vocation director from the diocese. He's gonna be coming giving a talk at 2:30 and uh and then benediction at 4 30 and food truck finale. So yeah. We'll put a little link to the Summerfest page on your on your calendar. We also got the raffle tickets too for the car and the grand prize and the condo and all kinds of fun stuff.

SPEAKER_01

Very good. I suppose that was a little plug, but uh it was fun to it was it was a plug, but it it fits in with your earlier comment that summer is here. Yeah, for sure. It's warm. My my wife and I are actually gonna get on the water first time in Ohio, first time up north here. We're gonna go out to Hinckley Lake, which they filled it up again. It was drained for three years.

SPEAKER_00

Wow.

SPEAKER_01

Uh so that that'll be exciting. There's something to me kind of holy about being on a paddleboard in water because you're not allowed, you know, you're really not supposed to walk on water. I mean, I know a couple of people who did, but yeah. But yeah, it's kind of cool that you know I'm I'm just walking on water here.

SPEAKER_00

Is it kind of a heavy heavenly experience?

SPEAKER_01

It is it is kind of a little bit spiritual. Yeah, I I I enjoy it. It's very peaceful.

SPEAKER_00

My time on a paddleboard was not heavenly. It was uh I was on Lake Erie.

SPEAKER_01

Oh, yeah. So you gotta, yeah, you're on your knees a lot when you're on Lake Erie, that's for sure.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I was with the youth group uh yeah St. Gabriels, and uh yeah, I preferred the canoe. Yeah. Or the kayak, actually. Right, right. But it was not really heavenly. It's uh it was a lot harder because I snowboard and stuff, so I figured, oh, this will be easy. Yeah. And it was not easy at all.

SPEAKER_01

Well, you get you have to develop a different sense of balance, but I'm not gonna get into that because snowboarding, I don't know how to do it, but it has to be you're uh you're actually on snow. But to be on water, it's a little bit of a different balance. But it's it's fun. Looking looking forward to getting out there this afternoon. So absolutely 85 degrees, I can take that.

SPEAKER_00

Indeed. Yeah, so yeah, in summertime, you know, it's just it's time to play, you know. Yep. I think that's our heart's desire play. That's why it's so beautiful to just have time off from work and everything, right? So yeah. Speaking of uh fun and play and spontaneousness, I suppose, right? I uh it was kind of cool. I'm gonna talk about this more on the next podcast, but I kind of had a fun little little endeavor. I went down to Dallas on Friday. The one in Texas? The yes, the one in Texas. Oh my. And uh that's you just went down there on Friday. Long story short, uh, the Lord was calling me to a little pilgrimage. And uh my my favorite band growing up when I was a kid was Creed. No, actually. Well, uh Creed was in there for sure. Okay.

SPEAKER_01

I that I that was that would have been my good memory, though.

SPEAKER_00

I did I go to I did go see Creed last year. Okay. Uh no, it's okay. Uh band called Red.

SPEAKER_01

Oh, I know them, yes. Do you? I don't know their mu I don't know their music. I've heard it. I'm not gonna be able to quote songs, titles.

SPEAKER_00

Okay. But I do know red. Interesting. Yeah, so uh kind of Christian rock band, kind of similar.

SPEAKER_01

Pretty kind of robust.

SPEAKER_00

Indeed. I mean, I do I do like heavier music, uh metal and hard rock and kind of all those things. I'm I'm different spectrum, so like it's either metal and hard rock or like acoustic music and kind of piano music and a little bit of everything, right? Yep. But yeah, I mean their album came out in it's been 20 years. So they had a 20-year anniversary kind of concert, and their lead singer is stepping down, so it was kind of like the last concert ever. But the first time I saw them was in 2006, I was in eighth grade, so so there you so there you go.

SPEAKER_01

Wow. Uh you can do the math, folks.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. Eighth grade's 12 years old. Indeed. Uh 13? Well, something like that.

SPEAKER_01

Something like that.

SPEAKER_00

Um 14, I think. But regardless, uh it was it was a very formative time for me. And uh it really did kind of lead to the development of my faith and everything and the seminary, I think, later on. So but uh yeah, they had their last show ever, and so I just kind of felt called to go down. And it was uh it was kind of an amazing experience. So I'll uh I don't have time to talk about it now, but we we should. We'll we'll flesh it out next time.

SPEAKER_01

And you know what else we should talk about is music. We should do an episode on music because you and I both have a love for music and we're coming from different angles. You're more of a guitar, I'm more of a piano, but it's uh kind of a beautiful thing.

SPEAKER_00

Mm-hmm. Yeah, I think why and we will do that. And I think that the key of music is you know what is what moves us. It's it's um yeah, it's we it's kind of a transcendent experience. True music and true be when it's when it's oriented towards beauty and truth and goodness and all these things, right? Right. It's kind of an experience of heaven, right? Right. Absolutely. Heaven itself, but but uh kind of points to it, right? Yep. Which I suppose that's our that's our topic for today, so we might as well jump right in here. So so yeah, we're finishing up the book, uh Trent Horn, Why We're Catholic. It's our last chapter today. Can you believe it? What a great last chapter.

SPEAKER_01

Heaven, right? Heaven. I mean, what a great way to end a book. It's not bad, especially talking about why we're Catholic. The last chapter is getting to heaven.

SPEAKER_00

Yes, we are Catholic, not just simply to follow all the rules and do all the things. Those are important, but why it's good to keep the context. Why are we doing any of this? Right? Right. Why are we even here, right? Why are we even here on this this earth? Not just to live a good life here on earth, just to randomly hurdle through space.

SPEAKER_01

Right. But we're here to we're here to get to heaven, right?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. So we want to talk about heaven today. We just we we finished up from our chapter from last week. So just to go back uh just a half step here, we did talk about uh hell last time. So the reality is, you know, Jesus talks about hell in the scriptures. Uh it is a consequence uh of our lives ultimately that our actions uh have meaning and and purpose to them, and either they're helping us to move in the right direction or or not, namely being in relationship with God or not. And uh life with God uh is is happiness, is is blessedness. The gospel from this morning is we're recording on a Monday, but uh it was the Beatitude this morning. And you know, blessed are those who are who are meek, who are poor of heart, uh clean of heart, and uh merciful and all these things, right? So living with God uh means blessedness and happiness. Living apart from God, you know, not following the commandments, living just simply for ourselves, that's uh in a sense uh a life of uh a life of hell, of rejection of God, and we're not gonna know that happiness. So But I think it's just I wanted to just to emphasize the point that even though hell is a reality and we should acknowledge it, that yes, the church has never named anyone in hell, uh, that we should have we we hope, right, that no one is in hell, right? Uh we hope that all people will turn towards the Lord. Uh and ultimately this is where Jesus calls us to not not to judge, right? We talked before about that we should judge actions, but we can't be judgmental. But we can't judge hearts and souls, right? Right. Uh that's why, again, the church has never declared anyone hell, because that is not our judgment to make. Only the Lord knows someone's life story, uh, knows their whole their their their heart and soul better than they do. And ultimately, yes, God is a God of justice, but he's a god of mercy, and he balances those perfectly at the end of our lives and when we're when we are judged by him and and all of that. But we throw our throw ourselves into God's merciful arms, right? And then he's with us. So we pray for all people. We but we pray for conversion, and that's why we have uh a mission of evangelization in the world, because we have to be saved from something, uh, but then we're also living for something else, which is where we find ourselves, right?

SPEAKER_01

Right.

SPEAKER_00

So anyway, okay. So heaven, what do you think heaven's like? I probably it's probably the mo one of the most asked questions, maybe, right?

SPEAKER_01

It's probably one of the hardest ones to answer because it's it's kind of unimaginable. It's an it's unimaginable but very desirous. I mean, I I talked last week about I really don't have a a strong passion about talking about hell, but I have I am super passionate about heaven. Don't, you know, I I I I know I'll get there somehow, only by the grace of God. But it would be to me, heaven is is the indwelling with Jesus, with God, that he talks about so much. I am in the Father, the Father is in me, uh, I will be, I am in you, and you are uh in me uh when you receive the Eucharist. Uh all that thing, it's like an eternal, and we can get into eternal. It's just really broad. It's hard to say what it is. Right. It's all the best things of the earth, of the world, but totally different.

SPEAKER_00

Yes. So yeah, part of it is okay, so God is outspe outside of space and time, right? So God is not a creature within creation, he's outside of space and time. So heaven is also where God is, heaven is also outside of space and time. Right. This is where it makes it really hard to talk about experientially, obviously, heaven. Exactly. Because it's outside of the categories that we understand, right? Uh how we understand being human, right? So uh yeah, it's it's outside of our uh experience. At the same time, we can also say something true about it. That yes, it's not a place, it's more about a relationship than it is a place. We all understand what relationships are, right? Right. And so far as we can experience uh a closeness with someone else, we can experience joy uh from from that knownness and being known, right? Uh with with someone else. So But even Jesus, you know, he it's not like it wouldn't be really helpful if in the gospels, you know, or in in his ministry he told, you know, he gave us all the answers. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

He just said, This is heaven.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, well he doesn't say he said this is what it's like. Right. So he used analogies to talk about heaven. He didn't actually explain, okay, it's gonna look like this, and then you know this, then that, and then this, right? Right. Or this is what the journey is gonna look like. He he he preached in parables, he preached in analogies. And I think you know, that's where when you think about heaven, okay, well, let's give a definition here first. So the catechism definition that Trent uh gives us is catechism let's see here. Uh paragraph 1024. Heaven is the ultimate end and fulfillment of the deepest longings, the state of supreme and definitive happiness. Okay, so what what is heaven? It's ultimate happiness that is f completely fulfilled. There's no lacking, there's no yearnings for anything that we are completely fulfilled. And John Paul II says heaven, or or he says, or happiness, in which we will find ourselves is neither an abstraction nor a physical place in the clouds, but a living personal relationship with the Holy Trinity.

SPEAKER_01

Well, that's a lot better than my definition.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, no, I am but well he's a pope and saint, so I suppose. That's true. He's already there. Yeah. Uh okay, so it's it's it's it's a blessed, it's a relationship of perfect union with God. Right. And we can experience I think we can experience that in this this world in our earthly lives, and it points to this this fulfillment later. Have you had any like heavenly experiences?

SPEAKER_01

I think it's a you say it's it's a perfect union. We can't experience a perfect union with God, but we can experience what I would think union with God in this world. So it's not perfected, I think, until you get to heaven, but we can experience uh a union with God, and I have sure. Yes, like when when when I'm on the water, when I'm on a hike, uh you can be walking and like you uh mentioned a while ago, just raise your hands and say, God, I adore you, and you are kind of in communion and union with him through nature, you can be in union with him through a lot of things, a lot of your likes and desires of this world. You can we were talking about sports and disc golf and uh indeed, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

So I same thing here, obviously being outside and being in creation. I think as we live a deeper life of faith, we experience heaven more.

SPEAKER_01

Yes. Right?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, well yes, insofar as we experience heaven on earth more, we experience everything more deeply. Right. So yeah, there was a sense of actually on this trip, I'll I'll share this. Like, so actually flying back after a two-hour delay and all those things, all that fun. Uh it was really providential because because of the flight delay and everything, I was flying into back into Cleveland and some storms had come through, but they hadn't I guess they didn't come up quite as all the way to Cleveland. But we flew through the storms. They were south, you're right. We flew through the storms, but it was also sunset time. So it was uh yeah, the sun was coming through the clouds and they were poofy and like okay, anyone could look at this and say, like, oh, that's neat. You know, that's really pretty. That's really pretty. But I don't know, just like because I believe in God and and God is actively working in our lives to reveal Himself and goodness, I just I it moved me very incredibly it meant more to you than just being pretty. It was kind of a heavenly experience. It's like and even still but and maybe here's the sense that even though it's like this moment where you just feel incredibly uplifted and filled, like, oh, this is so beautiful, I can't put words to this. Then the next cloud comes and covers your your your view. Yeah. To say like these things we experience on earth. So some people will will talk about having like it's the you know the best eternal golf game, or you know, it's whatever or the ice cream cones for days. You know, it there's something true in that. There's something true is that there's something good we're encountering. There's there's something that's touching our heart and soul that's that's good and it's it's it's happiness, right, that God is providing for us. But it's also to realize that you know heaven isn't just a continuation of these earthly things, um that they they point to this uh state of things.

SPEAKER_01

Right. So so I was I wasn't that wrong when I said it's the absolute best of this world, but totally different.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. It's not just like the next iPhone upgrade, right? So it's not just like a life that's just kind of slightly better than this one without you know or or longer, eternal.

SPEAKER_01

It goes on, you know, it's it goes on forever. It's it's it's totally different. Unimaginable.

SPEAKER_00

Right. It's like, I mean, this again, this is an analogy. It's like it's going from like a rotary photary phone to like VR or something. You know, it's like it's a totally different kind of reality. And that's not even really uh the sense, because it to the point, it's that's kind of an uh an earthly analogy of a thing, right?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, but but the the point you're making is it's like the the difference of it. I mean, a phone is a phone, virtual reality is different.

SPEAKER_00

Right, right. So it's yeah, anyway, it's about relationship. So uh we can look at our lives any any moment we felt um just truly joyful and filled, you know, that's it's really something that's pointing to heaven, right?

SPEAKER_01

Yes.

SPEAKER_00

So and just paying attention to those those times and those and those moments, thanking God for them as an as a as an experience of of goodness, uh, and then inviting more, you know? Inviting more in in our lives. So but yeah, on um page two or six he talks about how he says um heaven won't be an eternally long church service. That would be an insuffer yeah, that would be insufferable as hell. In fact, any earthly activity, be it church service or rock concert, or a day at an amusement park, would be hellish if we were drawn it if it was drawn out over an infinite period of time. Yeah, because you that doesn't really think about heaven. Like it's not just like a hundred years, a hundred million years, a hundred trillion years, it's forever. Right. Eternity, right? So doing any one thing forever would be eventually not satisfying. Right.

SPEAKER_01

It would be like being on the road or forever. Right. If you're from a Giaga Lake background there, that would not be good.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, yeah. He says heaven won't consist of unending earthly joys because these finite things can't satisfy our longing for perfect and unending happiness. He says, and this is the truth, and this is hard for us to grasp fully because we wanna have it again, we want to point to an experience of it. Uh but regardless, this is just the truth, and it's a mystery, and we're called to enter into it. He says, But God, who is infinite goodness itself, is the only reality that can provide us with the perfect love and understanding that our hearts desire. In heaven, believers will adore God for all eternity and never reach an end or stagnant plateau of whatever they adore. I think that's I mean it's it's ultimately you know, the who are the saints, the ones who have their lives uh totally directed to God and look to Him as their happiness.

SPEAKER_01

The ones who say yes to God and then continually say yes to God.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. And they they still live uh earthly lives, right? They still enjoy human things because they're not gonna be able to do that. They're human. John Paul loved skiing. Yeah. Um Saint Um Pierre Giorgio loved climbing mountains and smoking pipes. Yep. And you know, and having good meals and laughing with friends, and it just is it's a sense of you can do all those things, but if you're focused on God's presence and a relationship with God amidst all of those things, all of those things become heavenly in a sense. Because they're not just about us.

SPEAKER_01

Yes.

SPEAKER_00

But then but then ultimately, okay, all of that all the earthly stuff is gonna pass away at some point, because when we die, our soul is separated from our bodies, and we then go to the uh the afterlife, which is what your options are, right? Heaven, purgatory, or hell. But then after that, uh it it's the sense of being with God and the earthly things aren't aren't needed anymore in a sense, and it's just a perfect union. So anyway, it's hard to it's hard to talk about this without in a sense we want to explain it.

SPEAKER_01

And I think so that's that's that's a human nature, you know. Explain that to me, you know, and you you can't. So you just can't.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. But the key, this is why, you know, we have the the church's mission to evangelize, you know, that uh leading others to a relationship with God helps us to bring helps us to know heaven here, and then also for all eternity.

SPEAKER_01

So that's how you can turn turn to the saints as role models. I mean, they're there to help us with their lives and they they can show us a way. Jesus is the way. Right. I mean, uh there there is a lot of uh roadmaps out there that we can take uh to get us there.

SPEAKER_00

Right. Yeah. I mean, if you want to know what heaven is like, look to the lives of the saints. Obviously, because they're there, right? Uh and to say, you know, we were talking about saints a little bit before this too, you know. A saint is someone who's in heaven. How do we know they're in heaven? Because they have a miracle attributed to them. So because of their union with God, they're able to intercede for us in a way that actually helps to, you know, grant the prayers in which we're asking for, being it a healing or being it whatever.

SPEAKER_01

So And they they were totally human, just like us, born with original sin the whole time. While Mary is in heaven, she was born without original sin, but the saints were uh they struggle just like us. I mean indeed. Look at look at Augustine. Look at look at all these, look at all of them who just turned their lives around for Jesus. We're all on the journey, right? We are all on the same journey, hopefully. That's right.

SPEAKER_00

All right. Well there, a little bit, a little bit, just a little bit about heaven, right? Yeah, we could go on for hours. Yeah, we could. Um, but uh it's hard, it's a hard thing to put uh put the finger on, but uh the church has a lot to say about it, and um we can continue to to journey in it as we keep moving forward. So yeah, so we finished the book now, uh, but we're gonna keep we're gonna keep rolling here. So no so no worries. We may have some other some other books, uh, maybe some interviews coming up. This next time I do want to kind of reflect a little bit on the on the little pilgrimage uh that I took and just kind of talking, even talking about, you know, uh pilgrimages and and again our desire for heaven and our experience of heaven.

SPEAKER_01

So I would look forward to that episode because I don't know if I really understand that concept of pilgrimage, and I'd I'd like to learn a lot a lot a little bit more about that. Sure. That'll be a good episode, I think.

SPEAKER_00

We'll do it. All right, let's uh let's go to our gospel for the weekend. Amen. The Lord be with you. And with your spirit. Reading from the Holy Gospel according to Matthew. Glory to you, O Lord. At the sight of the crowds, Jesus' heart was moved for pity for them, because they were troubled and abandoned, like sheep without a shepherd. Then he said to his disciples, The harvest is abundant, but the laborers are few. So asked the master of the harvest to send laborers for his harvest. Then he summoned his twelve disciples and gave them authority over unclean spirits, to dry them out and to cure every disease and every illness. The names of the twelve apostles are these first Simon called Peter, his brother Andrew, James the son of Zebedee, and his brother John, Philip and Bartholomew, Thomas and Matthew the tax collector, James the son of Alphaus, and Thaddeus, Simon from Cana, and Judas Iscarit who betrayed him. Jesus sent out these twelve after instructing them thus do not go into pagan territory or enter a Samaritan town. Go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel as you go, make this proclamation the kingdom of heaven is at hand. Cure the sick, raise the dead, cleanse lepers, drive out demons. Without cost you have received, without cost you are to give. So there it is, right?

SPEAKER_01

An another deep gospel.

SPEAKER_00

Well, yeah, and him Jesus stating, you know, the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

SPEAKER_01

That's right.

SPEAKER_00

So it's this kind of both and reality. We're just talking about, you know, heaven in a sense can be known right here and now, you know, through um through Jesus, but then it's also will be experienced later in life. And you know, he invites these twelve guys to help him do that, you know, to help bring about the kingdom. And uh, you know, what's the sign of it? Curing the sick, raising the dead, cleansing lepers, driving out demons, you know, uh all to say, you know, healing us of uh of our sin and all the things that we we struggle with, and uh and ultimately knowing the fullness of the life of God within us.

SPEAKER_01

Right. The line that struck me, the the harvest is abundant, but the workers are few. So uh he sends out the workers, he Jesus sends out uh the apostles, and what do they do? They do exactly what he did. They heal the sick, they raise dead, they they did uh a lot of the things that uh he empowered them to do. So and then they became the church. They show us the way they are those role models and the the people who help us. So I'm gonna pray that that uh the saints uh come to my intercession as well.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Great.

SPEAKER_00

All right. Any uh any particular uh intercessions today?

SPEAKER_01

Um I think I think that's it. The intent my intention would be for the continued intercession of my favorite saints. I have several favorite saints, uh, that they pray for me, uh, that they pray for those I love dearly, and they uh pray for all people so that we follow their example uh to uh end up in heaven. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, and as we're finishing up this book too, I just want to offer just print uh prayers for for Trent Horn, you know, of uh his work and his ministry for giving us this book and uh being able to bless us, you know, over these um over these months as we've done this podcast. So and for all those who um work with Catholic answers or you know do up uh apologetics within the church, you know, teaching about the faith, that their endeavors just maybe, maybe, uh, maybe blessed. So let's pray. Father, Son, Holy Spirit, amen. Amen. Getting a gracious God, heavenly father, we just give you thanks and praise for this day uh for the gift of uh heaven, the gift of this life uh with uh the life in eternity with you. We ask you to share with us heaven today. Give us an experience of your goodness and your your mercy and your joy that we ultimately may trust you and depend upon you in all things. Uh just bless us today, keep us healthy, safe, safe, and always in your love. We ask this all in your name. Amen. Father, Son, Holy Spirit. Amen. Amen. All right, everyone, have a blessed week, and we'll see you soon.